“Dialogue for Action” – Armenian and Azerbaijani Youth Hope to Bring Change
[ 2009/08/24 | 17:20 ]A group of Armenian and Azerbaijani youth has met in neighboring Georgia at the beginning of August to participate in the Armenian-Azerbaijani workshop “Dialogue for Action”:
The workshop was organized by the Imagine Centre for Conflict Transformation, founded by conflict resolution practitioners from Armenia, Azerbaijan and the US. The Centre aims to fill the communication gap between Armenian and Azerbaijani societies, positively transforming attitudes of both societies toward each other and creating networks of professionals across conflict lines actively committed to improving the peace building process.
5 workshops with Armenian and Azerbaijani participants have been organized by the centre since its foundation in 2007. Phil Gamaghelyan, the Armenian co-director of the Imagine Centre, believes they have developed a comprehensive methodology. “First we focus on developing relationships, then on communication and conflict resolution skill building and as the next step we have a deep dialogue where the participants confront the conflict and their differences, including such hard topics as history”.
Phil says they work on both intellectual and emotional levels. “After sorting out the differences and achieving a degree of mutual understanding, we focus on the development of joint projects and development of an action plan for follow up”.
One of the most important things about the program is that it gives an opportunity for the participants to sincerely speak about their concerns, needs and hopes; representing their own position and understanding the position of the other side. During the workshop, the participants usually have enough time to simply communicate with each other.
The participants of the workshop have commented on their impressions in an interview with “Hetq”. Karo, 17, is the youngest participant of this year’s workshop. This is his first contact with Azerbaijanis. Although his perceptions about the conflict and Azerbaijani people haven’t changed, he has understood that the Azerbaijani society has the same concerns and fears that we have. “I have learnt to put aside the conflict for a while and simply communicate on a human level. I could never imagine such change would be possible. Now I am open to hear points of views that are different from that of mine and I am ready to understand the concerns of the other side”, he says.
Another participant of the workshop, Arpi, confesses she was very concerned the Armenian and Azerbaijani participants would fail to understand each other and that no dialogue would take place. However, she says, “Here I have found people who can listen to you and understand. I have learnt to be more tolerant without changing my position. I have also learnt to look at the issue from the other side, comparing positions and making more correct conclusions”
Delia, an Azerbaijani participant, believes Armenian and Azerbaijani youth don’t know each other at all and that people don’t want to communicate. During the workshop, though, “people were feeling and respecting each other’s pain”. “Those who wish to change things will manage. You can do it by changing yourself and people around you”, she says.
“New generations in Azerbaijan have never seen Armenians and only view them through the Karabakh conflict”, claims Nigar, who is a famous blogger in Azerbaijan and has many Armenian friends. “Our governments are busy blaming each other and bringing up zombified generations. But Armenian and Azerbaijani youth are the future of the region and they have to start talking”.
Nigar says it will be extremely difficult for the youth to bring changes to their societies, but she believes everything is possible “once you start educating people, showing the perspectives of friendly neighborhood, sharing your experience and telling about your friends.”
“The young generation is full of innovative ideas, we have skills and education that our parents didn’t have”, notes Imagine co-director Phil Gamaghelyan. “We can teach the older generation not to see the world in zero sum terms. We can cooperate and achieve everything we need while giving the other side everything they need. We can think of a conflict as an opportunity to jointly progress; not a curse imposed on us by dark forces. We can help our governments with ideas, guidance and networks, or we can take ownership and do it ourselves if the governments are incapable or unwilling to listen. The region belongs to us and our future is in our hands”, he says.
The participants of the Dialogue program are not going to stop here. They plan to implement joint projects aimed at bringing change to their societies. Their experience can really be useful. During the workshop there have been difficulties, moments of tension and misunderstanding, but they did manage to overcome them. Above all, they have gained good friends, something that – as many confess – they could never have imagined.
When speaking about future joint projects, the participants cite lines from John Lennon’s song “Imagine”, which has become the informal anthem of the program – “You may say I’m a dreamer, But I’m not the only one”.
August 24th, 2009 at 20:52
This U.S. State Department-supported initiative is counterproductive and will certainly not help achieve a pro-Armenian, just solution to the Artsakh conflict. Imagine organizers are literally telling Armenia and Armenians to start “understanding the position of the other side” even if those “dark forces” genocided and ethnically-cleansed you time and time again. One wonders how much the Armenian organizers and participants are being paid to shamelessly advance Pan-Turan, Western (energy) interests in the South Caucasus?!
August 24th, 2009 at 23:27
The organizers of the “dialogue” in this article assume that somehow Azeris and Armenians don’t know each other well. Of course, they knew each other *very, very well* as they lived with each other for decades, in each others’ countries and in Artsakh before the Artsakh war. That close proximity didn’t stop a war from taking place, did it? (No.)
Now, along comes this “dialogue” where the youth are somehow held up as being smarter than their parents. Maybe they aren’t at all. Maybe they are just young and naive and think they are going to reform Azerbaijan.
Also please realize that US interest in this sort of “dialogue” comes one source only: a desire to open borders in the Caucasus to enable complete US political, military (NATO), and energy (pipelines) penetration of the region.
With Georgia more unstable than ever, this is
a top US priority.
You would think the organizers would be aware of this selfish, destructive motive by the US.
Are the young Armenians being told of American interests, or is this dialogue simply an attempt to stage Woodstock-like love-in?
Frankly, this is how utterly stupid we Armenians are. We are the nice guys always falling for the blandishments and promises of the major powers without asking tough questions about what these powers want from us.
August 25th, 2009 at 07:38
Aram – your attitude is exactly the opposite of what this organization is trying to achieve. The only way to bring peace to the region and to ensure that conflicts like that don’t break out is to start talking to each other, try a new start to the relationship, understand that most people are good but some are a bit weak and easily manipulated. Most of the people in these conflict resolution sessions were probably too young to actually witness what happened and were not involved in the vicious killings (on both sides). I, sadly enough, witnessed some the conflict first hand and I don’t want it to repeat. No one wins a war. I love my dear Caucasus region and want peace.
August 25th, 2009 at 11:51
Julie, thanks for your perspective, it definitely offers more then blind antagonism suggested by Aram & Avo.
My question to Avo would be, “Do you think US interest in open borders in the Caucasus is evil for Armenia?”, would Armenia suffer from improved relations with its currently antagonistic neighbors, or would it suffer with open borders and trade? Who cares what is US interest, as far as it is not against Armenia’s own interest?
Also, yes Armenians and Azerbaijanis did co-exist, and still do successfully co-exist in Georgia, Russia and elsewhere, where the political outreach of mainland is limited….
An example is the confessional leaders of the two ethnic community in Georgia, that work hand-in-hand to promote their mutual interests and rights and the fact that it was Armenian Primate’s initiative to form an interconfessional group to work for the defense of religious rights of ethnic minorities in Georgia, does not hinder the Azerbaijani community’s clergy to cooperate to achieve similar goals and peaceful co-existance…
August 25th, 2009 at 16:56
To Aram:
Typical armenian mentality!!!
Whatever is done from outside u is always bad and should always be critisized, no matter who is doing…
Also everything and everybody is paid in Armenia… BS in this case…
Wrong conclusion about the program goals..
Did you read the article carefully or did you just want to seem the smartest bunny???
To Avo:
Being open minded doesn’t mean being smarter than our parents. There are several reasons in every family, which doesn’t allow the previous generaton be as open minded as we are, which doesn’t necessarily mean that we (armenians) are stupid. Persoally I am not of the same opinion about me, for You I don’t know…
One more clarification: US has nothing to do with this project, except the fact that the cordinator is living in there and note that he is ARMENIAN.
To Julie:
Thanks Julie for thiking outside borders and I think you have pretty much got the right idea of the Program.
Best`
Susanna
August 25th, 2009 at 20:53
Conflicts are not, unfortunately, solved by these love-ins.
I suggest that the Armenian young people be educated as to the geopolitics of the region and how the Artsakh conflict started. I also suggest that they study the history of Azeri-Armenian conflicts, going back at least to 1905 (the Tartar massacres of Armenians) and to the Azeris helping Turkey in WW 1.
I think many of you in Hayastan have a naive understanding of the US and think that its intentions are benign. You think it funds “dialogues”, such as TARC, because it is interested in human rights. Did you know that TARC came about due to the initiative of Marc Grossman, former US ambassador to Turkey and someone who has worked for Turkish entities?
It is sad that you don’t seem to understand that if the US were truly interested in human rights, it would be acknowledging the Armenian genocide.
The US wants to open borders only so that it can suck Armenia into its clutches and put pipelines through. That may or may not be in Armenia’s interests.
Do you have an understanding of what Armenia’s foreign policy needs and objectives are? You are young students that are supposed to be learning. If you don’t have such an understanding, why don’t you try to gain it? What do you read? Where do you get your information?
What are Russia’s interests in Armenia? You need to understand these things first.
Finally, who is paying the bills for the Imagine Center?
August 25th, 2009 at 21:23
The Imagine Center: Another example of brainwashing Armenians to sympathize with their victimizers. Every participant in the Imagine Center should read Rouben Galichian’s “The Invention of History: Azerbaijan, Armenia, and the Showcasing of Imagination.”
August 25th, 2009 at 21:30
The web-site of our organization (www.imaginedialogue.com) has information about Imagine Center’s aims, projects and supporters. Wanted to note that most of our work has been done by people and organizations in Armenia, Azerbaijan and the US volunteering their time, resources and space.
I also wanted to thank everyone both for supportive and critical comments.
phil
August 26th, 2009 at 00:24
This small, isolated pet project of the U.S. State Department and the Norwegian Atlantic Committee is certainly not going to (help) bring permanent peace to the South Caucasus, and result in a pro-Armenian, just solution to the Artsakh conflict, i.e. NKR independence or (re)unification with Armenia.
Yes, the project may have created a temporary climate for “friendship, coexistence and reconciliation,” but its meager benefits have now been effectively canceled considering these few young adults are back in Azerbaijan, where a warmongering leadership is still brainwashing and instilling hatred in the hearts and minds of yet another generation of Azeris.
The U.S. has great geopolitical interests in the South Caucasus, and blockaded Armenia and unstable Georgia are the only non-Russian, non-Iranian routes through which to transport Caspian oil and gas to the West. If the Americans are able to snatch Armenia from the Russians, then the entire southern tier below Russia will eventually enter NATO, a pipeline through Armenia will be laid, and Pan-Turkism will be reactivated.
Thinking “out of the box” prompts me to ask you these very important questions: The need for “dialogue” with the Azeris goes back decades, if not centuries. Why engage in dialogue now? What are you hoping for and working towards in this current, hostile environment? For another Lieutenant Gurgen Margaryan’s head to be axed off by an Azeri at a NATO military school? For another ancient Armenian cemetery to be completely destroyed by Azeris? Where were your imperial funders when all these grave crimes were taking place? How come they didn’t react at all? And, why should we trust that they will be there to protect and strengthen us today and tomorrow?!
Now, that’s “Dialogue for Action” for you!
August 26th, 2009 at 12:44
Aram, your attitude is blind and destructive.
You talk about murders and dates and don’t realize that Azerbaijanis have dates and murders of their own too. It’s not about blaming anyone now, no, but once you realize it – you’ll be able to get out of the box.
I am Azerbaijani, a turk, and although my family member was killed by Armenians in Baku, revenge is not among my lifegoals. And I’m not the only one (c) So are many IDPs and refugees I know, so are regular Azerbaijanis. Yes, we have blind nationalists, and ideally, you cud be great friends with them.
You ask why would you need peace? Because you wouldn’t want your children to see another war with bloody massacres. And neither do I. That’s why I work on peace and call you to do the same.
For me the world is more good than evil and I believe that we can overcome ourselves, forget about history and finally start building future.
August 26th, 2009 at 13:15
I think that kind of programs are ok, because we all need them. I mean, their government is heavily implementing propaganda.They perceive Armenians as aggressive man eaters, which is not true. They need to become more tolerant. And for Armenians, we are very tolerant and sometimes we need to meet them to understand that we need to be more active in conflict resolution, maybe become more aggressive.
Anyway, US participation is bothering me. Actually, I am not a fan of the Department of State.
August 26th, 2009 at 13:50
Why do majority of Armenians LOVE criticising, especially when it come to good things? Nothing is wrong with the Imagine Center…if you guys have better ideas then why don’t you start your own organization and do something good for this country instead of saying all kinds of crap???
And let others do their work!
Thank you!
August 26th, 2009 at 20:02
Go ahead and have a nice time talking to Azeris, but please realize that the security of Armenia and Artsakh depend, for the moment, on Armenians defending themselves with arms, not talk.
Also realize that the young people in Azerbaijan you are talking to do not control what their government does. You also have to consider certain realities such as that if Azeris return to Artsakh, there will be conflict and a new war will start. That is what Azerbaijan wants so that it will have a reason to intervene militarily.
I am also bothered by the fact that your funding comes from sources such as the US State Department. You may think that’s OK, but the fact is that when you accept money from what is, in many ways, an imperialist source, you are compromising yourselves. You may claim that the funder has no effect on your program, but adults know that “whoever pays, plays.” The US State Department is the same organization that does a bunch of nasty stuff around the world, such as supporting Turkey 100% in its genocide denials. So, your “Imagine Center” is accepting money from a genocide denier.
Have any of you ever stopped to ask yourselves why the State Department is funding you? Now, that does not necessarily mean that you should not talk to Azeris. It does mean, however, that you should take a deep look into US (and Russian) policy and see how both powers are trying to manipulate you.
How did Artsakh come to be under Azeri rule? The British in WW 1 lied to General Antranig, who then had to leave Artsakh to its fate. Then years later the Russians gave Artsakh to Azerbaijan. So go ahead and talk to Azeris. Visit Ataturk’s tomb too. Have a ball. The ice cream’s on me.
August 26th, 2009 at 21:54
If you want a Turk one day to visit Genocide Memorial, you should be ready to visit Ataturk’s tomb.
August 27th, 2009 at 04:53
1. The hostile, emotional statements above prove how compromised, lost and naive many Imagine organizers and participants are. In fact, your senseless labelings are reminiscent of those used by some Jews and their supporters to attack and silence legitimate criticizers of Israeli policy toward Palestine and Palestinians. You may think you can neutralize the message by attacking the messenger, but it’s never going to work!
2. None of my questions have been addressed or answered! How come? What are you afraid of? Expose your group’s true intentions!
3. And, why should/would Armenians, as a repeatedly attacked, genocided nation, visit the tomb of one of their greatest victimizers and slayers in history? How many Jews do you know who visit the graves (tombs) of senior Nazi/SS officers (aka Jewish Holocaust executors)?
This is exactly what Avo warned of earlier: Through pet projects like “Dialogue for Action,” the holocaust-denying, pro-Turkic U.S. State Department and NATO are encouraging some Armenians to temporarily mock “peace” with the enemy and carry out other anti-Armenian activities in exchange for increased access to imperialist power and cash.
Yerevan, we have a problem!
August 27th, 2009 at 11:25
This is quite a good and important discussion! It emphasizes the necessity of having similar “dialogues” within our society, among people of different opinions who should learn to listen to each other peacefully and tolerantly. This relates to gaps in our “democratic” minds – although there are those who believe that democracy is something unneeded in Armenia as it has also been mandated by the West.
I think many of those who left their comments here (pro or con) would bring an important contribution to an internal, but open dialogue.
I strongly recommend organizers of Dialogue Project to seek the ‘paths to peace’ in the two societies at the first place.
August 27th, 2009 at 17:24
I personally think it was a great idea to have these kids together to discuss the issues that otherwise are discussed on diplomatic level are never resolved for the favor of ordinary people.
This young generation is brave enough to step up and make that change. This generations dares to be different: more tolerant and transparent, and we should encourage them as much as possible.
They have made a great change. They are among the firsts and i respect each of them for this big step.
Time will show (i’m amazed why up to now people still can’t see it) that any kind of action that comes out of hater never gets anywhere.
Thank you, Anahit, for sharing with us your experience and i wish you all of you success in your joint projects.
August 27th, 2009 at 17:59
Thank You ALL, for your valuable insights and special thanks to those who have brought up the need for civil and open dialogue here among us. I agree labeling should not be used on any side (pro or contra), some of us may think like liberals on some issue and like conservatives on others…
Fatali, thanks for a very important point! I was brought up during and after the war and many of my friends have their own kids now and we definitely do not want our kids to see var and devastation. My facebook status says ‘Since wars begin in the minds of men, it is in the minds of men that the defenses of peace must be constructed’. – Preamble to the Constitution of UNESCO, and it is true, we can at least try to prevent a war try to talk to the “Enemy”.
For those who are talking against Imagine’s initiative – Dialogue does not mean forgetting past or trauma, the history, it just helps you understand it better. Where do you usually read your news about the other side?
Panarmenian.net? Other news resources.
How many of them have been talking about the youth in Azerbaijan that condemn the assassination of Gurgen Mrkarian? Have you ever heard of any? NO! All they talk about is how assassin Safarov was considered a hero. But he was talked liek her only for within thenarrow circles of radicals and nationalists. What about the rest? Do we ever care to tryto see what others have to say, or do we jus appreciate takignt he easy road, label everyone an assasin and living in fear all life?
It is only through a dialogue, through talking to ordinary people that I realized that at least not all or not many of Azerbaijanis praised him, indeed many cursed him for his evil action. How many of you know that there are Armenians and Azerbaijanis leaving side by side in perfect peace in Tbilisi, in Moscow, in Brussels? Which TV has ever talked about that, on any side? NONE! What you hear is exclusivist narratives, those that talk about one or two negative incidents, clashes, arguments…dirty politics…
About the Geopolitics Argument: I have tried to understands it, but guess what, Geopolitics just makes you feel like it is all about Russia & US, and that you are a tiny little useless creature in this region…. my answer is HAIL NO! I AM the ONE to decide for myself, I am the one to affect decisions at least to some extent. It is the people that leave here and the people that live in Karabagh who have to decide their fate. It is TIME to give up Zero Sum mentality. I just do not see what geopolitics or anti-dialogue proponents have to offer?
I think it is the fear that leads to those comments of the Geopolitics proponents, the fear of not knowing what is going on, what is next, what will happen, the fear of surrendering nationalistic, blind-minded positions and really going into needs, concerns and fears.
My recommendation to all, remember that there is always the OTHER side, and sometimes the OTHER side is taught the same in school, i.e., “They are barbars, invaders, aggressors, assassins” … it is always like that.
To Armenian commenters, By participating, not only we change, but we change the other side too, we all understand that not everyone from the other side is the aggressor and the murderer, we understand that they are in many ways just like us, regular human citizens with the same socio-economic problems.
US State dept: I am not a fan of them either… but that does not mean that all they are doing is evil. I have not seen any state department employee come visit those events, or claim any changes to be made in the program or methodology. The mere fact that they, just like many others, support this program does not necessarily mean this is evil. The same Government agency funded TARC and other “Suspicious” venture, while it also funded world known peace-makers and changemakers. US is the largest donor to most of UN’s Agency’s just like Small Norway and weak Japan and liberal Netherlands. US spends millions in Africa for health & development while nobody else does…. Remember: Life is not Zero Sum Game, but war is!
Thank you!
August 29th, 2009 at 02:36
The Imagine Center is founded and led by Armenian and Azerbaijani conflict resolution practitioners. All the workshops are developed by the Center itself. Our aim is to develop alternative vision of the conflict and contribute positively transforming the relations between the societies, to break the cycle of violence and so the two societies can co-exist peacefully side by side when an agreement is reached.
Another aim is actually in line with desire of some of the critics of the project to have the future of the region to be less dependent on the f geo-political games of big powers. I believe that as Armenia and Azerbaijan can not work with each other directly, they will always be at the mercy of conflicting interests of super powers. By developing trust an ability to work through their conflicts directly with one another, instead of relying to super power support against each other, the countries of the Caucasus can indeed assume a greater control over their future. Europe has a long history of mutual massacres and wars. That did not prevent them from finding a way to work with one another and and achieve sustainable peace.
Finally on sponsors: Imagine develops its proposals and looks for funding from various sources. The sponsors never altered our proposals or methodology or imposed anything on us.
Thanks again for the criticism.
Phil Gamaghelyan
Co-Director
Imagine Center for Conflict Transformation
August 29th, 2009 at 17:09
TO ALL: Dear readers you can continue discusion in Hetq’s blog:
http://sard.hetq.am
August 30th, 2009 at 01:42
Dear Phil,
So great to hear you’ve come this far with “Imagine.” It’s just what the world needs now and in the future. Civilized dialogue will win over those who rather spew out hatred and ignorance. Congratulations!
August 30th, 2009 at 06:42
It appears that the Armenians in “Imagine” can’t even affect how the governments of Armenia and Artsakh behave and whether they are negotiating in the best interests of Armenians, and yet these same Armenians think that they are going to affect Azerbaijanis and somehow come to an agreement? I think they’re blowing smoke. Besides “talking”, what does Imagine think that it is going to actually accomplish?
September 1st, 2009 at 04:23
OK, here we go again.
It is OK to have dialogue with your adversary/enemy. But, let us keep in mind that no matter what, Armenia simply cannot exist without Artsakh. So, I’d say: Go ahead and have not one, but 1 million dialogues with the Turks, but don’t sell your country for a few drams.
And please don’t forget to fight the rampant corruption in Armenia.
September 1st, 2009 at 12:18
Pascal, not turks – AZERBAIJANIS. Thank u.
Avo, it’s not about affecting anyone, it’s about TALKING and trying to understand each other. We’ve all changed during the 8 days there, we learned to listen, understand and love each other, despite the nationality or political stands.
Our main problem is the victim psychology and once we manage to get rid of it – world will show it’s colors again. Until that we will only keep on whining about the killings, massacres and genocides we had screwing up our own region and bringing up generations of uneducated zombies. No one is selling neither of the countries, they’re just trying to talk and unless u can help just don’t interfere.
September 2nd, 2009 at 05:35
You guys at “Imagine” (a John Lennon song, by the way; is that a coincidence?) think that you’re back at Woodstock. The world doesn’t work that way.
The fact that you say that you spent time talking and now “love” each other is just ridiculous. Even people in the same family, or of the same ethnicity and religion, don’t necessarily “love” each other. At some point, you begin to sound just plain silly.
September 21st, 2009 at 06:58
I share what Avo and Aram write about this initiative. To E.G.: if you are regularly participating in the programs of Imagine or are affiliated to their initiatives you should know that two of State Department employees visited the summer camp in West Virginia, in May 2009. They explicitly told the interests of the US in the region and the reasons Imagine was funded. If you write theoretical arguments, please take note of what is happening! It’s shameful to lie. I know from several sources that as a general rule, these types of initiatives do not encourage the knowledge of Armenian history, promote a spinless youth without priniciples and want to equalize Armenians with Azeris and foster the propaganda against the military service. This program does serve to the interests of global powers, and they do pay for that.
October 1st, 2009 at 10:54
Առնվազն միամիտ է կարծել, որ ադրբեջանական կողմը թույլ կտա նորմալ և հասարակական շփում: Եթե խոսենք առանձին վերցրած ադրբեջանցու հետ, նրանք, իրոք, մեղմ ասած, դատարակագլուխներ են, բայց մեր խնդիրը նրանում է, որ Ադրբեջանից եկածները հատուկ պատրաստություն են տեսնում: Թող ձեզ շատ բարձրագոչ չթվա, բայց ադրբեջանական կողմը մեծ ուշադրություն է դարձնում հայերի հետ իր քաղաքացիների ցանկացած շփումներին: Ես ինքս էլ հաճախ առնչվում եմ ադրբեջանցիների հետ: Շփման այն ձևերը, որ նրանք են օգտագործում, սովորել եմ նաև ես, ու պարզ է, որ հստակ նպատակ ունեն իրենց առջև դրված: Նույն այդ թբիլիսյան շփումների շրջանակներում ադրբեջանցիների հետ հանդիպած մի քանիսին ճանաչում եմ: Երբ մի քիչ մտնում ես մանրամասնությունների մեջ, սկսում են պաշտպանել “ադրբեջանական հողերը վերադարձնելու”, “հարևանների հետ առանց ագրեսիվ պահվածքի ապրելու” գաղափարներով: Մանրամասները` գուցե թե ավելի ուշ, բայց ես հաստատ ազգայնամոլ չեմ: Հակառակը` չեմ սիրում անուղղելի ազգայնամոլներին:
October 4th, 2009 at 21:20
To all naive and harif Armenians
Just couple of years ago an Armenian Officer was slouthered while he was asleep by Azeri officer.
Both were in Europe during NATO peace and frienship training program.
hope you have mental ability and courage to analize this tragidy.
Jesus Christ instructed us to forgive our enemies,but this is what happened to him.
He got tortured ,humilieted and in the end slowly killed.
November 16th, 2009 at 16:17
It never stops amazing me why we always think that our fate depends on major powers like US and Russia, and that they decide everything for us and nothing depends on us! By thinking so we only cheat ourselves, and justify things we did or did not by blaming “majot powers” on everything. This is our country, and we should decide with whom to hold dialogues and make friends with! I am happy for the guys, they are different!
January 8th, 2010 at 11:51
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