By Siranush Sargsyan

Abel Riu is a political scientist from Barcelona working in the field of international cooperation, in an NGO that implements socioeconomic development projects in countries such as Morocco, Guatemala and Senegal, especially supporting children’s and women’s rights. Among other issues, he is interested in post-Soviet affairs, and that is how he ended up discovering the Armenian question. From the beginning, he got very interested in it, reading and writing a lot about it, especially regarding the    Nagorno Karabakh conflict.

Abel is also interested in human and national, especially the right of self-determination of stateless peoples.

Here’s my interview about Artsakh, Catalonia and other issues.

Abel, you are active on the issue of the independence of Catalonia. Can you explain the problem and how do you see the solution?

The Catalans’ historic grievances with Spain have intensified in recent years. A deadlock has been created by the Spanish authorities’ refusal to even consider repeated proposals coming from Catalonia, including an honest attempt to renegotiate the 1979 autonomy charter. Starting in 2005, a new text of the charter was drafted and approved by the Catalan Parliament, and subsequently endorsed by the Spanish Parliament, but not before several key provisions had been pared down or simply removed. In the end, it was ratified, reluctantly, by the Catalan people in a referendum. But then, in 2010, a not unbiased Constitutional Court ruled that several articles were unconstitutional and gave a restrictive interpretation of many others. In practice, the resulting text, far from improving the earlier charter, served to set limits to the scope of Catalan self-government, and the entire process revealed how little the Spanish side was willing to advance in that direction. At that point, it became clear that the current system of Spanish territorial administration, established in 1978 after a long period of centralized rule, was being used to perpetuate the Catalans’ status as a permanent minority in Spain. Today, a growing number of Catalans feel that their collective affairs are being run by Madrid with no regard for their needs and often against their vital interests, and many have lost all hope of a fairer bargain within the Spanish framework.

The Catalan government has pledged to hold a referendum on the relationship that Catalan society should have with Spain – whether to maintain in some form the present state of political subordination or start off as a new independent nation. That was the course of action chosen by Quebec in 1995 and by Scotland in 2014 and respected by the governments of Canada and the United Kingdom. But the Spanish authorities, relying on a narrow interpretation of the Constitution, have declared such a referendum illegal and have vowed to prevent it. They are also working to undermine its preparation. In their reaction to alleged acts of disobedience by Catalan elected representatives, the state institutions seem to be reverting to some of the ways of the dictatorial past, to the point of threatening the very pillars of democratic governance.

The solution to this political deadlock seems obvious: to let Catalan people vote, express their will on the political status of Catalonia. If the Spanish government does not allow so, the Catalan government and a very important part of the society are ready to do so unilaterally. Our government has very recently set a date (1st of October 2017) and a question: "Do you want Catalonia to become an independent country in the form of a republic?”. Opinion polls show that 75% of Catalan people want a self-determination referendum, regardless of how they would vote. It is up to the Catalans to decide on the collective future of their society, and the only reasonable and effective way to it is through a referendum.

Let’s move from Catalonia to Artsakh. This year you were in Artsakh. Can you tell me about your visit?

The reason for my trip to Artsakh was to participate in an international observation mission organized by the EAFJD (European Armenian Federation of Justice and Democracy), on the occasion of the Constitutional Referendum that was held in Artsakh on February 20, 2017.

We were eight international observers from several European countries. The overall impression expressed in the reports was very positive. If not to count some minor details, the technical and organizational standards were very similar to the ones of a recognized State with a functioning democracy. We were all very positively impressed in this regard.

What surprised you the most in Artsakh? What did you uncover?

The feelings that I had after the visit were a bit contradictory: a mixture of satisfaction, on one hand, and sadness on the other. Satisfaction for having had the chance to discover such an amazing and unique place and people, establishing communication, living and coexisting with Karabakhtsis for a week and getting to know a lot about them. Everywhere we went we were charmed with the incredible hospitality that the Artsakh people offered to us.

And sadness. Sadness for the difficult situation I found – more difficult that what I expected- and the stories of pain and suffering that I was being told by some locals, past and present ones. I perceived worry for the future of the country, linked for many people to their personal future as well. Many people are worried because of the increasing Armenophobia and military aggressiveness from the Azeri side, especially since the April 2016 war.

Despite this, the normality with which many people were living close to the Line of Contact, in the midst of the regular shelling, surprised me. They were carrying out their daily lives, working, taking care of their gardens, etc. It felt that living normally close to the frontline was also a way to defend Artsakh.

In your opinion are the issues of Artsakh and Catalonia, both countries striving for independence, comparable? Could the independence of one of them serve as a precedent for the other?

There are certain similarities and differences. Both cases erupted as a result of structural crises in their respective states. Perestroika and breakdown of USSR in 1985-1991, and the economic and political crisis of the 1978 constitutional system in Spain, were determinant triggering factors to understand the beginning of the independentist struggles in Artsakh and Catalonia, respectively.

At the same time, in both situations, the dynamics are very local. They are different from cases such as Kosovo and Abkhazia where geopolitics and the interests of global or regional powers played a determinant role. Both Artsakh’s and Catalonia’s claims are based mainly and almost exclusively on their struggle of their peoples for self-determination, with no foreign intervention or interests playing any significant role in favour or against the struggle. Russia plays an important role in the South Caucasus, but largely tries to be neutral on this issue, despite its military alliance with Armenia.

On the other hand, Artsakh is already de facto independent, after having fought and won a bloody and dramatic war, whereas the Catalans are still an autonomous community of Spain. Still, the conflict in Artsakh is far from being resolved, and seems diplomatic efforts keep failing. So far, the military means on the ground have prevailed above the pacific ones in order to establish the current (or future) status quo. That is something that the Catalan independence movement is trying to avoid from the very beginning. We are in the EU, and expect this circumstance to serve as a guarantee to restrain the Spanish authorities from the use of violent means to repress our struggle, especially when it comes to the organization of the upcoming 1st of October referendum.

If the international community ends up accepting the legitimacy of the Catalan struggle towards self-determination –in part due to the intransigent Spanish position-, that may serve as a positive precedent for Artsakh, as it was the 2014 referendum in Scotland or the upcoming one in Iraqi Kurdistan. In the meantime, the Artsakh and Catalan peoples should support each other struggles, expressing internationalism and solidarity between peoples fighting for national liberation.

You’ve been thinking about collaboration between Catalonia and Artsakh. Can you elaborate?

I perceive that there is a lot of interesting opportunities when it comes to possibilities of collaboration between Catalonia and Artsakh, and between Catalonia and the Republic of Armenia. There is a lot of sympathy in Catalonia towards Armenia, and a growing interest when it comes to the situation in Artsakh. As far as I know, the interest in Armenia and Artsakh regarding the situation in Catalonia has also increased during the last years due to the political process we are going through. We are both small territories with a long history and very powerful political foes. Therefore, it is necessary to address this growing mutual interest in order to build bridges and advance the cooperation between the two countries in several fields, such as culture, journalism, economics and education, etc. Catalonia is going through a process of internationalization in many spheres, and some of us –Catalans but also Armenians living in Catalonia- we are working hard to start to develop those links and friendship relationship. The next months and years will most likely bring new and interesting opportunities in this regard.  

What are your wishes for the Armenian nation and especially to the people of Artsakh?

For all Armenians, to keep struggling and be well organized all over the world.  To keep alive the flame of their identity and historical struggle for survival and recognition. An example for many of us.

I also wish a bright future, peace and freedom especially for the people of Artsakh in the territory which legitimately belongs to them. Let no more wars destroy your lands, homes, and families, and let no more blood be shed.

(Siranush Sargsyan is Chief Specialist of the Republic of Artsakh’s National Assembly Standing Committee on Science, Education, Culture, Youth and Sports․ She’s now interning at the European Parliament and at the office of the European Armenian Federation for Justice and Democracy.)