An Interview with Eleonora Manandyan, New Armenia

Eleonora Manandyan is the President of the New Armenia Social Organization. A student activist during the presidency of Levon Ter Petrosian, Manadyan is now one of the most prominent alternative voices in Armenia . Increasingly speaking out on social and political issues, Manandyan is considering running for the Armenian National Assembly in the next Parliamentary Elections scheduled for 2007.

Onnik Krikorian: What is New Armenia and what do you do?

Eleonora Manandyan: We work in two areas. One is working with children at risk so, for example, we now have a project in the Arabkir district of Yerevan that supports the community and helps improve the work of the local authority. The other area is not political because we don't like this word and anyway, as an NGO we can't become involved in such activities, but it is somehow working with society. We try to increase public awareness on various social issues which are, of course, connected to politics.

However, this is a problem because sometimes when you receive financial support from organizations, including international ones, you are obliged to realize their political agenda even if you do not want to.

For example, we experienced this before the 2003 Presidential Elections with Ashot Agababian, Director of the Hrazdan Stadium, who used to provide us with food for children in need. Then, during the elections, he asked us to take part in the campaign for Robert Kocharian's re-election but we refused. He was fine with this but during the Parliamentary Elections he told us that we had to do something in support of the Republican Party. When we again refused, he stopped supporting us.

This happens very often and when I was recently in the United States to observe the US Presidential Elections I spoke to an NGO there, "Americans Come Together," and they said that they sometimes have similar problems. So, it is a problem all over the world and not just in Armenia.

OK: You say that you don't want to become involved in politics but from what I've been reading recently, you seem to be getting involved quite a lot of late. Are you going to be part of the new opposition bloc that might be formed by Raffi Hovannisian, Hovannes Hovannisian and Aram Sarkisyan?

EM: No. However, if there is the possibility or opportunity to do something then we should. It is our responsibility and from this point of view, we have already decided to establish something like our own political bloc. It's still not organized yet but it will comprise members from our NGO as well as others.

In this case, when we do become involved in political activities we are not going to do so as part of the New Armenia organization but as part of the New Armenia bloc. We are still undecided but we are thinking of standing for the next Parliamentary Elections.

Since you raised the question of this new opposition bloc, however, we organized a press conference a few days ago where we said that we were against any political leaders, especially those from the opposition, talking not about problems that need to be resolved in Armenia but rather, about international relations and international politics.

We have many problems that need to be resolved and this is the main problem. The opposition hasn't any program to address them.

OK: Are you referring to the fact that this new opposition bloc -- which we still don't know will be formed or not -- is talking about integration into the European Union and NATO?

EM: Yes. Nobody has spoken about social issues, healthcare or education. We have so many problems -- for example, terrible problems with the education system -- but nobody is talking about them. Instead, the opposition stays idle until something happens in Georgia and it's the same with what's happening now in Ukraine .

For our bloc, however, we don't talk about whether Armenia should be closer to the United States , Russia or wherever else. We should have our own strategy and identity and only then can we consider choosing our friends on the basis of our national interests.

OK: But we can understand that in order for the opposition to stage a successful "revolution" they need the assistance of outside powers.

EM: Yes, but they don't say we need democracy because it is good for Armenia . They don't say it's the 21st Century and that's why we can only have this model for the state. They instead say that Europe tells us that we should have democracy. So, we don't want to protect our human rights because we think that we should but because Europe tells us to.

If everything people declare is simply because Europe tells us to, then I am against it. However, if it is understood that this is the genuine model for the development of our country, then I am of course in favor of following this path.

OK: Is society ready to think about such issues? Does it understand concepts such as democracy and human rights?

EM: Yes, I think that society is quite ready to make these ideas a reality but another problem is that Armenians don't like ideas that appear to be pushed from outside, even if they are good. So, we first have to understand that democracy and respect for human rights is beneficial for us. Anyway, with all this talk about Europe or the United States , what about NATO? This seems quite absurd to me.

NATO has always been concerned more with Turkey so how can we integrate into that system? By the way, this is only my opinion and we have others in our bloc that think differently.

OK: Let's talk about society and democracy. For example, everyone complains about the falsifications that occurred during the last Presidential Elections. People were offered money and their votes were bought. However, while they complain, they still took the money.

EM: Yes, of course.

OK: However, in Georgia during the Parliamentary Elections we saw people actually fight to protect their vote at polling stations. I'm not necessarily suggesting that Georgia is decades ahead of Armenia in terms of democracy but there was definitely a marked difference. Why do you think that is?

EM: People are not able to fight AGAINST something here. They are only able to fight FOR something and this was the main problem that faced the opposition. They didn't say this is what we should do but instead said that the government is bad.

Yes, we all understand that the government is bad but we don't know if things would be better if they were in power. If someone was to say, however, that we will fight to improve the situation then the people would also fight with them.

On the other hand, some people are already talking about some "changes" in March as always, and we have mentioned this special [opposition] bloc -- if it will be created. I'm not sure that this bloc will be strong and I don't know if some political figures such as Aram Sarkisyan will join because he has Albert Bazeyan and [former Defense Minister General-Lieutenant] Vagharshak Harutyunyan in his circle that will be against it.

OK: They'll be against it because the declared pro-western direction of the bloc?

EM: Yes, because of that.

OK: I know this is probably going off the point but maybe it doesn't matter if a government is pro-European or not because to join the EU, Armenia would have to hold a referendum. It is for the population to decide this issue but nobody seems to consider their opinion on the matter.

EM: This is because nobody wants to think about the democratic process because it is problematic and the same is true with the constitutional amendments. We were thinking of holding a press conference on this but instead made an announcement saying that society must discuss these amendments. People have the right to make their own suggestions instead of having our constitution decided by someone else.

OK: I suppose that people would argue that the population doesn't understand what democracy, the rule of law or the constitution is.

EM: So there should be education and the mass media has to play a role in this or else, why do we have the mass media?

OK: One of my main interests at the moment is with regards to youth. It's still concerning to see that youth in Armenia are largely apathetic and cynical. We've had past conversations about this before because you were a student activist during the Levon Ter Petrosian years. What was the situation like then and what happened to make the situation like it is now?

EM: There are very many different opinions on this issue. For example, I believe that it is always possible to activate youth if the right steps are taken. In 1996, people also said that youth was very passive and so on but we managed to organize many student demonstrations [over conscription and other social issues] months before the elections.

This was in April 1996 and people weren't even thinking about the Presidential Elections that were held later on in September. Of course, it was also about leaders.

OK: Who was leading the student movement at that time?

EM: Myself and a group of other students. In 1996 I was still a student but also working in a position at University. Of course, after these demonstrations I was removed from that position but thankfully, this was also the year of my graduation. After that, all doors were closed to me but in any case, I understood that we had to fight and this was quite possible because of our ideas and also, because of our approach.

OK: Do you think that it also had something to do with the fact that back then, independence was fresher in the minds of people and they still had hope that things could change?

EM: No, because perhaps it was even the wrong time to declare independence. The early 1990s were very terrible with no gas, no electricity and no food. When I was President of the Student Council I was living in very bad social conditions but I knew that other students were living worse than me. I remember crying because I was hungry but I knew that there were others who were even more desperate.

The years 1991 and 1992 were terrible times and by 1994 people began to understand that while they didn't have bread, there were government officials driving around in jeeps and so on. This was the time of hate and nothing else. Now, I don't think that we hate our government but instead understand that this is society, that is the government and there is nothing in between. There is no connection between the two.

OK: What should be in between them?

EM: There should be nothing in between. We should be the same. We are the government. They are our servants.

OK: We recently saw students here become agitated over the conscription issue...

EM: I went along to these meetings as a kind of observer and it was very interesting for me. There was a conference organized about the deferment of military service but I thought they would do a lot more. However, they didn't. Compared to what we did in 1996, it was nothing.

OK: What was interesting for me, however, was to see how quickly the government reacted because it was as if they were really concerned that students might become active again.

EM: I disagree. For me, it was another thing. I think the government was testing whether students were active or not and what they could do. After this, they understood that most students were passive and that there were only a few with some ability but who were unable to lead any protest actions. It was also a way to see how much control the Republican Party had over student bodies. In actual fact, they don't have control but they are able to disturb any actions taken by other students.

OK: In most societies, youth and students play an important role in the development of the nation. However, it doesn't seem to me that youth are playing any role in Armenia at the moment.

EM: I was arguing with a very significant political figure about that only yesterday and he said that youth in Armenia are like this because they are still considered children and dependent on their parents until the age of 30. I hadn't heard such an opinion before and I don't know whether it is true or not but it's an interesting idea to think about.

OK: Yet, although there might be some political motivation behind it, I was encouraged to see that the Armenian Revolution Federation - Dashnaksutiune's Nikol Aghbalyan Union recently came out against corruption in the education sector. Is this an encouraging sign?

EM: I was there at the conference they held and it was so dirty. Orinats Yerkir, the Republican Party and Dashnaksutiune always invite me somewhere as if to use me for their own purposes and at that conference, these three coalition parties were fighting among themselves. I had to say I'm not from an opposition party but I am in opposition. However, look at you.

You are the coalition government and see what bad relations you have with each other. When you talk about corruption in higher education you have to be together. The problem in this case was that the Republican Party did not want Dashnaksutiune to become involved in student issues. For them, the Dashnaks were interfering in an area they believed to be theirs.

OK: I've heard allegations that pressure was later applied on those students that spoke about corruption and in fact, I've heard these kinds of rumors before. A few years ago, a small group of students protested outside the Government Building on Republic Square and there were reports that [what is now] the former KGB went to their head of faculty the next day. They were threatened with expulsion if they did anything like that again.

EM: This is usually what happens and it was the same for me when I was a student. However, back then the government also understood that if something happened to me, 8,000 students would take to the streets. Going back to the Nikol Aghbalyan Union, however, I understand that they are only interested in this area because the anti-corruption field is now under the control of Dashnaksutiune and Bagrat Yesayan.

So, they're trying to become involved in youth issues and want to stamp their mark on it. The Dashnaks, however, can mobilize a very serious segment of youth. Generally, the Nikol Aghbalyan Union can attract young people who, while lacking a very deep spirit, are at least interested in struggling against something. Unfortunately, however, they can not appeal to other youth in Armenia.

OK: Let's talk generically. Many youth in Armenia don't seem to think that there will be a brighter future tomorrow or even when they reach the age of 30. Yet, at the same time, I don't see any signs of them trying to make their future better. Why?

EM: Recently we've been making contact with students. We have an idea to establish a youth club but until we do, students come here to become involved in some activities and to discuss various issues. They're not passive, they're the most active students, but they're very immature when it comes to politics and even social activities. They are talking about things that we used to discuss when we were thirteen.

All they do is watch Muz-Tv but what about literature? Okay, so they're not interested in reading but as some of them are from the Faculty of Eastern Studies they should at least know something about Eastern or Arabic literature. However, they don't know anything. Of course, they want to learn because they're not bad people but even so, they're more like thirteen year olds than adults.

OK: Yet, Georgia had a very strong student movement. Of course, it's arguable whether it was genuinely interested in change or whether it simply served a political purpose but nevertheless, is this simply a question of money coming from Soros to fund Kmara or is it also a difference in mentality?

EM: Of course, there is a difference in mentality but on the other hand, money is an important issue. In Armenia , money is only made available for youth when it comes to the prevention of HIV-AIDS or environmental issues. There is no support for real youth activities but in Georgia it was another matter.

You know, we conducted a special investigation on funding for youth activities during the period 2001-2003 and it was published in the Aravot newspaper. For three years, 480 million drams from the state budget was spent on youth issues but all of this money was "eaten" with the full knowledge of the Ministry of Culture, Youth and Sports. The people who took this money were also involved during the Presidential Elections.

There are all these youth NGOs but three or four of them belong to one person, three or four to another and so on. They receive money which is then taken by these individuals and the government knows this. However, when it comes to election time, the government then says we know what you've done and therefore, you must support us. Not only that, but they promise to give them even more money.

OK: The environment, however, is very interesting in the context of Armenia . The first protests here towards the end of the Soviet era started out under the pretext of environmental concerns. Besides, while we can talk about the political system in Armenia , sooner or later it will eventually change. Environmental damage, however, threatens everybody's future and may be irreversible.

EM: The problem is that we don't think about the future. That is the point. People dump their rubbish on the streets, for example, and everything starts from that.

OK: People say that if those at the top don't care about the law, then why should we? Unfortunately, however, the rule of law along with the constitution are the main foundations of the state.

EM: We will reverse this situation. In fact, I'm often asked what kind of issue can reactivate not only youth but also society itself and over the past two months I have begun to think more and more that it is education. We are now trying to initiate discussion in society not about educational programs or the law on education but rather its conception.

I hope that this will be the area in which some change occurs. We are working with pupils in schools as well as their parents and hope that this will change something.

OK: Do you think that there are similar people like yourself and your friends from the early 90s within the student structures now?

EM: I think that there are some leaders but they are very weak not in terms of experience which comes with years, but in terms of spirit. They have no real desire to fight. However, it is interesting when students come to me and say that something has to be done. They don't know how or even if it's possible but I am happy that they think about such things and therefore, I am optimistic.

OK: Whatever happened to your fellow student activists? If they haven't left Armenia have some also formed NGOs in Armenia ?

EM: No. The main part has left the country and those that are here are involved in business or the governmental sector. Many of my very good friends who fought with me against the previous government are now in governmental structures themselves.

OK: But are they pushing for reform?

EM: No. When I meet with them they say that they now have good lives, families and children and they must think about their future. This is very sad for me.

OK: It's interesting to look at what's happening in Georgia . There are some concerns that when much of civil society became part of the new government there was nobody to take their place. However, regardless of whether it is Shevardnadze, Saakashvili, George Bush or even Tony Blair, every country needs an active civil society.

EM: Yes, and this is why I always be in opposition whoever is in power. Good government needs a good opposition.

OK: So, you are working with pupil councils in schools. Can you tell me a little about this?

EM: We have established pupil councils in 21 schools in the Arabkir district of Yerevan and we hope that these can serve as an example to other schools. We have about 70 volunteers and they will be sent to these schools to work with children and to organize social activities. This started from the beginning of December and we are working with both the community and the schools on this. Later, we will try to do the same in other communities.

But what about youth clubs? I understand that it is very popular in the United States to have special lectures where people from different political and social backgrounds can come to talk about and discuss specific issues with students. At the end of the discussion some decisions can be made which will then form the basis for further activities by youth to realize these decisions through some common effort.

OK: This year you spoke at opposition rallies. Aren't you concerned that the government will act against you?

EM: You know, we have many inspections, checking our papers and our financial accounts at least twice a year but we are very clean. In 1996 I had a lot of problems with our government because of speeches I made at demonstrations and as a result, I remained silent for a long time after that. However, then I understood that I am probably more dangerous for the government than the opposition because the people trust me more.

OK: In fact, I recently spoke to someone in her early twenties and she said that she didn't vote during the Presidential and Parliamentary Elections last year because she didn't trust any of the candidates. However, she then said that she would probably vote in the next Parliamentary Elections because she had heard that a very good, young woman who runs a social organization dealing with youth might stand. She was talking about you.

EM: I know and a lot of people call me and tell me that I have to run for President. However, I don't want Armenia to have a woman President.

OK: Why? Are you very traditionalist in that respect?

EM: No, I'm not. Firstly, I couldn't run anyway because I am only 30 years old and according to the constitution you have to be at least 35 but I also think that having a woman as President would be the breaking point for our men. They are already very weak.

OK: But you don't seem to care about that when you take the podium at opposition conferences and tell a predominantly male audience that there are no men in the hall. What did you exactly say?

EM: I said that Kocharian was right when one year ago, while speaking about the opposition, he said that there were no real men left in Armenia .

OK: With all this talk of a new opposition bloc, however, would you be part of it or would you prefer to be a small independent party?

I would like to be part of an opposition bloc but I don't see any really good parties or leaders. You have mentioned Raffi Hovannisian but he still has some problems associated with his name and I don't even think about Hovannes Hovannisian because he is not a political leader in any case. Aram Sarkisyan has many problems because of his brother and the fact that he had no right to accept the position of Prime Minister in 1999. It would be another matter if he had refused.

Aram Karapetyan has been sent by some forces from Russia and there are allegations that Artashes Geghamian took a bribe from the government. Stepan Demirchyan is very clean but he's not a leader and is politically immature. I have a lot of respect for Victor Dalakian but he is also not a leader and people wouldn't vote for him. I also respect Vagharshak Harutyunyan and have learned many things from him regarding geopolitics so I am very proud of our acquaintance. However, he is also considered to be a representative of Russia .

Of course, I am categorically against the return of Levon Ter Petrosian.

There is also another bloc that might be formed by Vazgen Manoukian, Paruyr Hairikyan and Ashot Manchurian. However, while Vazgen Manoukian is an intelligent political figure he lost his chance a long time ago. Paruyr Hairikyan is politically dead and Ashot Manucharian is very charismatic and educated but not a leader and the people will not vote for him.

So, although I don't want to be a political leader, I also can't see anyone else and think that I have some obligation to go to the next Parliamentary Elections even though we haven't money or access to the mass media.

For example, when I am invited on television, I am told not to talk about the government and during my last interview on H2 I was asked about our children's center. They asked me about the situation of children at risk and I answered that question by saying, to be honest, all children are at risk in Armenia because they haven't been set any good examples to follow.

Then, during the advertising break, the General Producer of the TV station came and stopped the program. I was told that I had said something political and that they would never invite me on to their TV station again. Similar things have happened on Kentron TV and I don't know what we can do because the mass media is closed to any alternative opinions.

Maybe this is the case but I will go to the elections and let the people decide. Anyway, we don't need a lot of money. We just need enough to meet with people.

OK: You were a proxy for Demirchyan during the Presidential Elections last year but you told me that this was not because you necessarily supported him but rather, you supported the democratic process. This is an interesting approach in a county where people rarely speak about democracy.

EM: We just wanted to take another approach and to set an example. It's not easy to break the system, of course, but it is possible to create something different and to let people make their own choice. Do you want this system or that one? It's the same with the rubbish on the streets that I told you about earlier.

A few days ago I was walking somewhere late at night with a colleague and there was a water leak that was making the ground icy and slippery. So, we tried to find out where the leak was to see if we could do anything about it. Two boys saw us and asked us what we were doing. We explained and their response was "Are you Armenian?" At first, they couldn't understand why we were concerned with this water but then they helped us.

OK: So what you' are saying is that by setting an example, people can change? Of course, when people see someone driving around in a Hummer or jeep, or wearing very expensive clothes and eating at a very expensive restaurant, that might also be another example for them to follow.

EM: Yes, this is another possibility but when we talk to people they agree with our approach. Yes, some can see that the people with all the money do not have an education and that they became wealthy through illegal ways but something will change although perhaps not in our lifetime. Maybe our children will not see it either but our grandchildren will and people of this kind will not exist by then. However, I understand that this is a rather optimistic view.

Of course, there has been some progress in certain areas and also some sectors of the economy when compared to the early years of independence but real progress depends on the people, many of whom don't feel any progress at all. There certainly hasn't been any real progress in our mentality and in fact, we have regressed.

Now, we are not independent -- really, Armenia is not independent -- and people don't consider that there is a future. They don't feel part of this country and this is really a great problem that outsiders can not see. There are still many people deprived of the ability to live normal lives and who still need bread although not as many as before. However, I don't consider social polarization as a social issue but instead, a political and psychological one.

If the rich were paying their taxes, for example, then social polarization would become a social issue but even then, many poor people would still lack the willingness to change their situation.

OK: Do you think that in the next few years society will become more mature and be able to stand up for its rights?

EM: I think it depends on whether any new leaders will emerge. I also believe that the constitutional amendments might be a first step in activating people in time for the next Parliamentary and Presidential Elections. On the other hand, there are people involved in politics, even in government, who think that many things will change next year. I'm not sure but it's possible that many things will indeed change by 2008 but, I'm afraid, they might not necessarily be good.

In particular, I think the problem of Karabagh will be raised by the international community and after its solution, many people consider that Kocharian will resign. In that case, however, there is the possibility that [Defense Minister] Serzh Sarkisyan will come to power.

OK: How do you view the role of the Diaspora in Armenia?

EM: We need the Diaspora and it is important for us all to feel part of the same nation. Unfortunately, we do not and this is the problem. Perhaps this started when Armenia declared independence but I also think that when Kocharian came to Armenia , people started to divide Armenians into those from Armenia and those from Karabagh. Then we started to divide Armenia and Karabagh from the Diaspora.

Yet, we have a virtually mono-ethnic country and this can help us solve the problems in our Republic far more easily than in Georgia or Azerbaijan . However, the Diaspora is not interested in the political process although maybe this is because they understand that all the financial support they gave up until 1994 was stolen by the government.

As a result, they don't want any real connection with the Republic but we have to change this situation. We all have to feel Armenian again.

New Armenia has a web site at: http://www.newarmenia.org