Below is an interview with Bagrat Estukian, Armenian Language Editor of the Istanbul-based “Agos” newspaper.

-Armenian-Turkish negotiations have proceeded at a quick pace these past few months. What do you think of the process and where do you think it will lead?

-These events have their own internal logic. We should remember that Turkey recognized Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia as independent republics on the same day. However, Turkey has not formalized diplomatic relations with Armenia to date. In the background is the historic Armenian-Turkish enmity, regardless of the Karabakh conflict. Turkey was taken unawares when faced with Armenian independence. It didn’t know how to proceed. The parallel Karabakh conflict gave Turkey the excuse to keep the border closed and to have an argument as to not establishing diplomatic relations. During the Soviet period Armenia and Turkey had one border opening, the Leninakan railway crossing. But that too was closed. Now, if there is talk about opening the border then naturally there must be land crossings as well, in addition to rail lines. As an independent nation, Armenia naturally wants open borders and normal relations. If not, Armenia doesn’t have greater expectations from Turkey from the opening of the border. Products from Turkey already are transported to Armenia, even with closed borders. Armenia’s markets are flooded with Turkish goods. The air links is already opened and it’s not too difficult to travel to Turkey. Anyone can get a one month visa, get on a plane and fly to Istanbul for business, etc. If the border opens Armenians from the RoA will be able to visit the ruins of Ani and the Church of Akhtamar without travelling the long, tiring road through Georgia. But these aren’t real essentials for Armenia. For both countries it would be conducive to normalize relations. This is twice as important for Turkey as it is for Armenia. Turkey finds itself in a rough spot when it comes to world public opinion because it is often accused of blockading Armenia. It’s a big headache for Turkey. Turkey wishes to extricate itself from this but the question is how. Domestically, people in Turkey will accuse the government of betraying their Azeri brethren if it seeks friendly relations with Yerevan. Naturally, the government in Ankara doesn’t wish to fall into this position. This is also a card in the hands of Azerbaijan. They believe they have a lever with which to pressure Armenia but it has been proven that it isn’t the case at all. They don’t wish to see this however and believe that with a little patience Armenia will eventually “collapse”. But Armenia is prospering by the day. I use the word prosper in quotes. I don’t mean the prosperity of the Soviet period, rather that day by day constitutional rule is being practised and tax reforms are taking effect. In other words, Armenia is finding solutions to its problems even with the blockade. I, as an Armenian, am not too thrilled with the notion of the border opening. I am concerned that Armenia will be polluted if the border suddenly opens. I am concerned that capital flows from Turkey will not take place. If they do, it will probably be in the illegal markets. We have Cyprus as an example before us. Today, Turkish Cyprus is a polluted country due to Turkish investment. Turkey isn’t the country that will come and build factories in Armenia or develop manufacturing and thus bring in capital to serve Armenia with. Turkey, as a pillaging nation, will attempt to extract the optimum benefit from Armenia, Thus, from an economic standpoint I don’t see much benefit for Armenia. The benefit will derive from entering the normalization process. In this light, I also see a benefit regarding a resolution of the Karabakh conflict.

-Mr. Estukian, in an interview you gave to Shant TV last year you stated that you approached the “I Ask for Forgiveness” campaign initiated by Turkish intellectuals with reservation. Do you believe that their campaign was initiated with the approval of the Turkish government?

-No, absolutely not. If I said that I approached it with “reservation” it doesn’t mean that I question the sincerity of the intellectuals. I fully believe in their sincerity. I really don’t think that they had any ulterior motives in what they did or that they did so on the urging of the government. These individuals have left their stamp on the issue a long time ago. It’s not the first time that we are hearing their names. If that were the case then we’d have suspicions. There are intellectuals in Turkey that definitely cannot be regarded as agents of the government. Rather, they are exercising their free will and thought. If I see reservations it’s because the Armenian people still demand an apology and this initiative doesn’t satisfy that demand. We are still awaiting an apology on a state level. We don’t expect more. We don’t have territorial demands from Turkey.

-When you use the term “we” are you referring to Armenians in Turkey?

 -When I say “we” I am merely expressing my personal conviction and not the entire Armenian community in Turkey. I have no authority to speak on behalf of any group. I believe that as an Armenian I personally have no territorial demands from Turkey.

-Why?

-Because I am not capable of taking control of those lands that are being demanded. I have no people to settle those lands with.

-In your opinion should the Republic of Armenia also refrain from demanding territories?

-No it shouldn’t. The Republic of Armenia would do well to stem the tide of people leaving the country and I’m glad to see that the exodus has slowed. Armenia should draft new programs to resettle diaspora Armenians in the RoA. Our country needs to further develop and prosper.

-What about financial restitution?

-Neither financial restitution - I don’t see people bargaining and agreeing to an acceptable amount. What happens if they say here is an amount based on today’s currency evaluation of your 1.5 million victims. What then. This is neither conducive for us or for those making restitution. There are numerous other ways to be recompensated. Wouldn’t it be a form of recompensation if the port of Trabizon was put at the disposal of Armenia at no cost? Wouldn’t it be a form of recompensation if Armenia could use Turkish air space free of charge? I believe that restitution will take such forms rather than sitting around a table and bargaining as to the value of 1.5 million lost lives. Such an approach is not morally correct nor is it practical.

-Recently, in Armenia, a proposal was introduced that an international foundation be set up to oversee and maintain the Armenian cultural legacy that survives in historic Armenia. The foundation would be comprised of Turkey and European nations.

-Do we really need a foundation? Turkey’s cultural ministry spent a huge sum ($2 million – LS) on the restoration of Akhtamar.

-However, no cross was placed atop the church.

-Of course, there was no cross. What was the reason? The site doesn’t serve as a church today. Who will pray there and what flock will a priest serve - a group of twenty Armenian tourists from America? This country is the same country that for decades after 1915 destroyed numerous holy sites like Akhtamar by bombing them. We have a clear record of these facts. The Architectural Union in Armenia has a list showing cities and towns that once had Armenian churches that today do not exist. We are talking about ninth and tenth century edifices that have suffered heavy natural damage. Let’s forget about the damage inflict by humans who see these sites as treasure troves to be dug up and plundered. If the Turkish government today has put a stop to this and allocated huge sums for the restoration, I can only express my thanks. I have no expectations about a cross being placed there.

-On May 11, 2009, Germany’s Angela Merkel and French President Nicola Sarkozy again made statements against Turkey’s accession in the European Union. Several Turkish officials and businessmen that we met here said that Turkey doesn’t need the EU and that, on the contrary, Europe has a need for the Turkish market. The opinion was also expressed that if Europe wishes to see the problems in Turkey resolved, it “must stand by Turkey and not alienate it”. What’s your viewpoint?

-During the last 15-20 years, the voices on the right have been on the ascendancy in Turkey and this facilitates the work of those like Merkel and Sarkozy. However, their approach will only lead to other types of conflicts that the world cannot overcome. This is why I second the notion that between Turkey and Europe there exists a dual viability. Turkey probably has less of a need for Europe than the EU does of Turkey. The Turkish market is huge. It would not be in the best interest of Europe if Turkey veered to the east, towards the Muslim world. It would be a nightmare for Europe if Turkey turned out to be another Iran. However, Merkel and Sarkozy are equipped with the political foresight to see this. They are not descendants of the Western branch of conceptual development.

-Do you believe that the process of the recognition of Armenian rights and making their voices heard, which started after the murder of Hrant Dink, will continue?

-After the death of Hrant, there was no social upheaval in these terms. Because of developments in this country, we have made a number of achievements. For example, we can now apply to the European Court of Human Rights. This has nothing to do with Hrant’s murder. After the death of Hrant, the government’s approach to us has not been much more favourable and the same holds true today. However, parallel to developments in Turkey, we have become more demanding and more emboldened when it comes to making our voice heard.

-What problems does the Armenian community in Istanbul face today?

-The most important problem that we have is the opposition we face when dealing with the government. More correctly, this opposition or contradiction is faced by all non-Turkic nationalities. This is because this nation is based on false concepts. At the time of the establishment of this state, many wished that only Turks lived here. However, this wasn’t the reality. Thus, if there are other nationalities they are viewed on two levels – Muslim and non-Muslim. They are trying to assimilate the Muslims into the majority while removing the non-Muslims. This approach worked initially. Many Albanians, Cherkez and Abkhaz have been Turkified. Here, the only exception is the Kurdish people. They aren’t easily Turkified and represent a major “problem” domestically. The second example is that of the Armenians, Greeks and Jews. These nationalities have been reduced to mere wisps of their former presence. There were some 250,000 Greeks living here at the time of the establishment of the Turkish republic. Today, only 3,000 remain. This is a result of that policy I mentioned previously. Nevertheless, it is getting harder to exercise this policy due to the initiatives of the intellectuals mentioned previously. Today, these Turks are holding themselves accountable for the past. These are the intellectuals raising their voices on behalf of Greeks and Armenians.