Olivier Decottignies Says Azerbaijan is Obligated to Allow Return of Armenians to Artsakh

Mr. Ambassador, for a long time now, representatives of Armenia and Azerbaijan have only been meeting through the mediation of the U.S. Secretary of State. Can we conclude that the Brussels format of negotiations has failed? If so, why?

A discussion between the Azerbaijani side and the Armenian side has taken place in New York in the margins of the UN General Assembly, and was organized by the United States Secretary Blinken, who took that initiative. That doesn't mean that the EU mediation is not alive. The EU still is offering its services to the two parties. And to my knowledge, Armenia has not rejected the EU's offer. And of course, if you look back at the negotiations and what was achieved in these negotiations, the most important, effective steps were achieved thanks to the mediation of the EU, in particular when the parties met in Prague together with the EU and President Macron in October 2022 and that is when the parties reaffirmed their commitment to the Alma-Ata Declaration, which is key to a fair and stable peace resolution.

Azerbaijan continuously sets new preconditions for signing a peace agreement and shows hostility toward Western mediators. Are you optimistic about the signing of this agreement?

I think the signing of the peace agreement is a matter of urgency. It has been stated repeatedly, including by the Armenian Prime Minister, that most of the agreement is already agreed upon by the parties. The Armenian Prime Minister expressed willingness to sign what is already agreed as a basis for an agreement, and then there can be further talks on pending matters. Azerbaijan has a special responsibility, including as a country that will attract a lot of international attention while they organize Cop 29 which creates special international responsibilities for them. The chief responsibility at this stage is to come to a peace agreement with Armenia.

What if they postpone this and refuse to sign an agreement before Cop 29? What will happen?

That's a question to ask Azerbaïdjan. Our position is clear: the conditions for a peace agreement are there, and that peace agreement should be concluded as soon as possible. That means before Cop 29.

Azerbaijan constantly claims that Armenia has fired on its positions, despite statements from the EU monitoring mission that reports of tension on the border are inaccurate. Is the EU planning to expand this mission?

I am quite surprised at the criticism towards the European mission made by Azerbaijan, but also by Russia. And quite strikingly, we hear the same words from Russia and from Azerbaijan to the point that one wonders whether it's Russian language translated into Azerbaijani Turkish or Azerbaijani Turkish translated into Russian. When one looks at the facts, the European mission has contributed to a decrease in the number of incidents on the military contact line. I mean real incidents, not fake news. The populations in Armenian villages close to the contact line, who are exposed to the risk of fire between the two countries, and even to the risk of a resumption of the conflict welcome the presence of the mission. I joined EU mission patrols and met with the local people. The European mission, to them, is a reassuring presence and the sign that the rest of the world hasn't forgotten them. And this is why France insisted, together with its EU partners, on reinforcing the mission, which is happening. The staff of the mission is roughly doubling, and its capabilities are enhanced. It has been one of the most practical, instrumental contribution to stability in this region.

How many people will be included in the mission in total?

The plan is to roughly double the presence of the mission so that means a couple of hundreds. And they are extremely effective. If you look back at the past few years, a few dozen European observers equipped with googles - they are civilians, they are not armed - have done more for the stability of this region than the Russian contingent in Nagorno-Karabakh.

Does it mean that EU will not remove the EU mission from the border on the demands of Baku and Moscow?

The mandate of the mission is decided in Brussels.

Mr. Ambassador, during your speech on France's national holiday, you mentioned that France will not compromise on the right of the people of Artsakh to return, as recognized by the International Court of Justice. Do the agendas of Yerevan and Paris align on this issue? How do you envision this being implemented in practice?

More than 100,000 refugees have fled to Armenia: the almost entire Armenian population of Nagorno-Karabakh was forced to flee. I say forced to flee, because it was not a voluntary decision. After nine months of blockade, after brutal military assault, there is no way this could have been a decision by choice. Very importantly, on October 5, a communiqué adopted at the Summit of the International Organization of Francophonie recognized that these people were forced to leave. The first thing, the urgent thing, which we did immediately, and we were the first respondent country at the time, was to help these people and help Armenia welcome them.

In 2023, France was the first donor in terms of humanitarian support for refugees from Nagorno-Karabakh and for the Armenian communities that welcomed them here. This is a fragile population, and they still need support. This doesn't mean that we will compromise on their rights of return. Because their right of return is not an opinion. It is an obligation: the decision by the International Court of Justice, on November 17 2023, is mandatory for all UN member states, including Azerbaijan. Of course, we know, and the refugees themselves know, that the conditions are not ripe now for that. Is there a difference with the Armenian government? I don't think so. First, we're supporting the Armenian government's efforts to welcome and integrate these refugees here. And second, the very decision by the International Court of Justice that established the right of return resulted from a procedure initiated by the government of Armenia.

So, you will keep this question open until it becomes possible.

We keep it open and we push for it to become possible.

France is participating in support programs for forcibly displaced people from Artsakh to help them integrate and settle in Armenia. According to official data, around 9,000 people from Artsakh have already left Armenia. How do international donors ensure that the support is targeted? Is there proper cooperation between donors, the Armenian government, and the people from Artsakh?

This is the key question. The emergency phase is over. The phase when people were coming in cars and trucks in Goris, and when there was a massive arrival of people who were traumatized, who couldn't bring any of the belongings, this phase is over. Now the question, as you said, is to provide economic, social conditions, services that allow for refugees from Nagorno-Karabakh to settle in Armenia, and to live in Armenia. Some of them left. Most of those left for Russia. There is a logic to that because they have family in Russia. There has been a long history of labor migration from Nagorno-Karabakh to Russia. Yet I am not sure they leave for Russia with a light heart, given the fact that they were completely abandoned by the Russian military contingent in September last year. In the current phase, in the  discussions with the Armenian government and the international donors we try to target projects that support the refugees, their livelihood, their education, their integration into the Armenian job market.

Most complaints concern housing projects. Is this discussed with all stakeholders?

It is absolutely discussed directly with the Armenian government. It is discussed through the French Development Agency, which is quite active in housing sector, and with French NGOs. There are, for instance, villages where you have available housing that was renovated by the French Armenian fund, and offered to refugees from Nagorno-Karabakh. And of course, as a stakeholder in international financial institutions, France has a seat and has a say in organizations such as the World Bank, as the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development, and even the Asian Development Bank. We are advocating for those institutions to support Armenia and to support housing projects in Armenia.

France is an active member of UNESCO. What progress has been made regarding sending a UNESCO mission to Artsakh to prevent the destruction of Armenian cultural heritage?

The destruction of Armenian heritage in Nagorno-Karabagh, whether religious sites, cemeteries, civic buildings, ordinary houses and even whole neighborhoods is a major concern to us. The French culture minister was crystal clear about that when she visited Yerevan last year. The members of the International Organization of Francophonie were also clear about this in their 7^th October statement on Armenia. UNESCO needs to access Nagorno-Karabakh.

Mr. Ambassador, in the context of Armenian-French military cooperation, contracts have been signed for the acquisition of defense-related weapons and ammunition. What are the possibilities for expanding cooperation? Is Armenia's membership in the CSTO an obstacle to deepening military cooperation?

We do not consider Armenia's membership, “frozen membership” as the government of Armenia describes it, in the CSTO as an obstacle to provide Armenia with the military equipment it needs to protect its people, its territory and its sovereignty. We said it and we did it. We made it clear with our partners, including our NATO allies. So, to us, there's no taboo. We're glad that other countries have initiated a military cooperation with Armenia, such as India. And we hope that more countries will join.   

Has the entire order already been delivered?

I won't comment on the deliveries. But our cooperation is not a one-shot. There hasn't been one order. There are new orders, including the one last year for the CAESAR. It is not about signing an agreement, delivering and forgetting about Armenia. It is walking alongside with the Armenian army in the process of its modernization. Military equipment is just one part of it. Training and doctrine are extremely important. We also provide training to Armenian soldiers on Armenian and French territory, and we provide advice to the Armenian Ministry of Defense.

Does Armenia have a prospect of joining the EU?

First, it is for Armenia to decide whether to be a candidate or not, and that is the sovereign decision of Armenia. As someone who lives in Armenia and meets Armenians from all walks of light, what I see is that Armenians are looking towards Europe. In many regards culturally, in terms of the rule of law, the consolidation of the Armenian democracy, there is a strong attraction to Europe among the Armenian public. And Armenia is already a member of the European political community. This is an initiative by President Macron to gather not only members of the EU, but also countries of Europe that are not members, to try and solve common problems that face not only the European Union, but the European continent as a whole. It is not worthy that the most significant progress in peace negotiations between Armenia and Azerbaijan was achieved within that framework.                                 

But is the EU expecting Armenia?

It is not that romantic. It is a political process and a technical dialogue. The EU is showing openness towards Armenia, and the best example for this is the recent decision, supported by France, to start negotiations on visa free travel with Armenia.

Mr. Ambassador, we receive daily complaints from Armenian citizens about the difficulties in obtaining Schengen visas. People often go through a humiliating process, paying intermediary travel agencies to secure appointments for document submission. What steps are being taken by EU embassies, and particularly by your embassy, to resolve these issues until visa liberalization becomes a reality?

The appointments for visas are free, and only embassies can give those appointments. So, if an organization tells you that they will find an appointment for you, they are lying to you, and if they are asking money from you, they are robbing you. These people are delinquents, they are liars and they are robbers. I very strongly ask your readers to call them out, to give us names and we will investigate. It is true though that most European consulates in Armenia are overwhelmed.  And the reason is that more people want to travel to Europe. Travel plans were delayed during Covid, and people now try to catch back with their travel plans. As far as France is concerned, you have far more options to fly to France including direct flights to Marseille, Paris and Lyon in addition to the traditional Air France flight to Paris. And our relationship with Armenia is getting stronger.  That means many people are traveling for business, for military, for cultural reasons, to meet sister cities or sister regions in France. That is why we are reinforcing our visa section. And that is why we are in the process of subcontracting the first steps of visa application: not the decision on the visa, but the first steps of visa applications, the fingerprints, the remittance of the visit documents to a contractor.

Is President Macron's visit to Armenia expected this year?

The President received an invitation by the Prime Minister. As you know, the recent months have been a bit bumpy in French politics. Now the government is formed and includes a number of political figures who have been long-standing friends of Armenia, including our Prime Minister who inaugurated this Embassy when he was a junior minister for Europe, back in 1995. Our leaders are in constant contact. On the 3^rd of October, Prime Minister Pashinyan was in Paris. He attended the Francophonie Summit but he also had lunch with President Macron. Out of the dozens heads of states and governments who were in town for the Summit, our President chose to host the Armenian Prime minister for lunch. This shows the importance of Armenia to us.

Thank you very much Mr. Ambassador for this interview.

Thank you very much.

Photo credit: Anjela Aghamyan/Hetq